Andrew Yang: The AI Plot Twist, Politics, & What’s Next

Jonathan Sposato: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Seattle Magazine Podcast where we believe Seattle is a world-class city, and also what happens here in Seattle impacts the entire world. Our guest today is someone who has never been afraid to challenge the script. Literally and figuratively, an entrepreneur turned presidential candidate.

He went from relative obscurity to out polling sitting governors and senators in a 2020 Democratic primary by talking about things. Most politicians weren’t ready to touch AI automation when an economy should look like when technology moves much faster. He sparked a national conversation about universal basic income.

Built one of the most passionate grassroots movements in recent political history and continues to push us to rethink work and democracy in the 21st century. Please welcome my good friend. Andrew Yang. Hey, it’s so good to [00:01:00] be here with you, John, and thanks for having me. I feel like an honorary, uh, Seattleite.

You are. We can just make that your title on, uh, seattle mag.com. Honorary Seattleite.

I know our readers, our listeners are dying to know. You were a successful entrepreneur. You founded Venture for America. You were comfortably operating in a world of startups and, and things that are very high growth and exciting. And then one day you decided, you know what sounds really relaxing, running for president.

What was the actual moment where this went from, kind of just a, a germ of an idea to I’m filling in that paperwork. 

Andrew Yang: Thanks, John. It was 2015. I read a book called Raising the Floor by a gentleman named, named Andy Stern, and he was the head of one of the biggest, maybe the biggest labor union. In the country.

And he said that AI and technologies were going to get rid of the jobs [00:02:00] of the people that he represented and that we should move towards universal basic income. And so this was like a labor leader saying labor was going to become obsolete essentially, and we should do something very, very dramatic. And I took that to heart.

The end of his book, he said someone should run for president on universal basic income. And I read this in 2015. I did not think, oh, I’m gonna do that. I thought, oh, that’s a good idea. Like he’s, he’s onto something. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: This is before Donald Trump became president. Mind you, so Trump wins in 2016, which stunned me.

I thought that Hillary was on track to win. Like, you know, I was seeing the same news articles that everyone else was. And so in the beginning of 2017, I sat down and said, why did Trump win? And. I saw that the voter district data moved in Trump’s direction everywhere that manufacturing jobs had been lost in.

Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, all the key swing states that Trump [00:03:00] won back in 2016, and my friends in Silicon Valley told me straight up even then, that we’re gonna be automating away millions of call center jobs and retail jobs and eventually driving jobs. And so I decided to run for president.

When I had lunch with Andy Stern, actually in 2017. I said, Hey, read your book. Agree with the vast, vast majority of it. Who is going to take on the mission of running for president on universal basic income? And he said, no one. And then I said, well then I’ll do it. Uh, and um, then he said, who are you again?

So, um, so that was the key moment in my mind. It was spring of 2017 when I had lunch with Andy. And you said no one else was gonna do 

Jonathan Sposato: it. Yeah. Now. What do you think is the most sort of misunderstood thing about UBI? Is it, I don’t know how you fund it, is it about how it impacts human behavior or you know, just sort of a weird 

Andrew Yang: [00:04:00] reaction to free.

I think the biggest misconception is that universal basic income is an answer in and of itself. The one of the most common questions I get is, Hey, how do you still give people structure, purpose, fulfillment, community training, value, uh, all of these things because money doesn’t necessarily. Accomplish all of that.

And I then sometimes make an Asian joke and I say, uh, I, I love work. I’m Asian, after all. And then suggest that the money in people’s hands would end up supercharging and catalyzing. Local small businesses and nonprofits and volunteerism and activism and religious communities. Uh, you know, and I was with, uh, a faith leader and they were frankly relating that people in their community weren’t doing so well.

And I, I suggested, well, if everyone had more money in their hands, um, not only would their families be doing well, but I, I imagine that their involvement [00:05:00] with the church in that case would probably be. As high or higher that the, the money would end up going into things that we care about and we value, and then that in turn would give people places to go in the morning.

The vision is not, Hey, I send you money and then you stay in some strange, uh, internet rabbit hole, or something along those lines. It’s that we all have a place to go because we have value, we have ways to contribute. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. Let’s make it a little bit more germane to the city of Seattle, as I sort of talked with you in the past about, you know, I, I’m the farthest person away from sort of understanding how to run a campaign or political strategy, things like that, you know, kind of zoom out for us, talking about Seattle.

How important was this region to your campaign? Is it one of those where, I mean, I can kind of assume one or two things. I can kind of assume like, well, you know, they, they kind of get it. We hear they’re pretty smart up here in the Pacific Northwest. They’re kind of techies. They get AI and [00:06:00] the threat of it and what, you know, downsides.

So we don’t need to spend a lot of time there. Or alternatively, that is where a lot of people will get my message and, and I need to sort of foment a little bit more support in areas like that. What was this 

Andrew Yang: region like for you? I had an awesome rally here on the campaign at Gasworks. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And a bald eagle flew overhead just as I was speaking and people still remember pointing at that eagle to this day.

Jonathan Sposato: Wow. 

Andrew Yang: People definitely got the AI argument here. I spent time with a guy, I think, you know, named Gary Locke. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Um, who, who, uh, was here. There are a lot of Asian Americans here, and so we had an event for that community. Mm-hmm. Seattle brings many, many warm memories for me from 2019 and 2020 around the campaign.

Also, there’s a lot of money here and frankly, you know, I’m sure a lot of political figures come here to pass the hat. I definitely did that. You know, like you’re in [00:07:00] Seattle, you have a rally and it’s like, hey, there’s a fundraiser after, so. I am someone who’s had really good experiences here. I’d also been here for business a number of times, um, before, I will say my longest day here might be 72 hours.

Mm-hmm. Something like that. But I’ve had 10 or uh, 12 of those types of trips. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. Well, very cool. Should you wanna stay longer than 72 hours? I speak on behalf of Seattle to say you’re welcome to come back anytime. 

Andrew Yang: Oh, thank, hang out 

Jonathan Sposato: with us. Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: I’ll give you another Seattle story. My friend Elia Cohen, who I think you may know.

Mm-hmm. Great guy. Uh, took me up in the balloon, so I got the bird’s eye view. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: So I, so I’ve had some awesome. Memories here. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. Very good. Very good. 

Andrew Yang: Oh, I should actually share my strongest association with Seattle. And that’s Nirvana. Oh yeah. Pro Jam. Alison Chains. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yes. 

Andrew Yang: Sound Garden. Oh yeah. The whole thing.

The 

Jonathan Sposato: whole thing. 

Andrew Yang: I saw the movie Singles when, you know, it came out in the nineties and the soundtrack, and it had a big impact on me. Years later, I became friendly with Chris Nova Uhhuh. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Who [00:08:00] then I just looked up to Yeah. Literally too. ’cause he’s very tall. Yeah. ’cause 

Jonathan Sposato: he’s super tall. Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Yeah.

So, so I’ve always thought that Seattle had a special place in the culture. Certainly for, 

Jonathan Sposato: yeah. 

Andrew Yang: A Gen Xer like myself. 

Jonathan Sposato: If you were advising our new mayor over coffee, what things might you consider telling her? 

Andrew Yang: No, I really enjoyed a conversation I had with the mayor of San Jose. Mm-hmm. Uh, a year or so ago, Matt Mayhan.

Hmm. And, um, he gets there and he is like, what are our priorities? And they showed him a list of 21 priorities. And he was like, if you have 21 priorities, you have no priorities. What, what, what was, was his answer. And so he said, okay, we’re gonna do three things. We’re going to eliminate or reduce homelessness.

We’re gonna make sure that the streets are clean and sanitation is. Extraordinarily high level, and we’re going to work on public safety and crime and policing. And he said, we’re gonna get those three things right and the, the rest then will [00:09:00] flow downstream. I loved that approach. Mm-hmm. And it seemed to have worked in San Jose beautifully.

Mm-hmm. Because when you walk around there, the streets are clean and feels very safe and mm-hmm. The business environment has thus flourished. Um, so that’s the kind of thing I would push the mayor of Seattle or a mayor of a, a number of cities on is, look, let’s focus on pivotal things, quality of life issues that everyone can understand because one of the things I do think governments tend to get involved with is trying to spur different business initiatives and efforts.

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Um, and oftentimes. If you can create the conditions, 

Jonathan Sposato: the businesses will grow on their own. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I appreciate that. And having us spent a lot of time in San Jose, I have a lot of relatives, aunts and uncles, cousins in San Jose. And um, I would, I would argue that there are a lot of similarities demographically and even psychographically people kind of think similarly.

So, um, I appreciate you drawing that. [00:10:00] That comparison. You know, Jonathan one of the things I admire about you is your optimism. How do you protect your optimism? You seem like you’re just undeniably positive and enthusiastic, and I know that you’re not really like that a hundred percent at a time. No one is right.

You can’t be. But for the most part, I would say you stack rank in the top quartile, at least, if not the top sort of 3% of most optimistic people that I know. How do you do it? How do you protect it? 

Andrew Yang: Andrew One of the tricks I play on myself John, is that I just lengthen the timeframe. Lemme see if I could explain this.

Mm-hmm. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: So let’s say I’m having a bad day, bad week or month, or even like, Hey, I, I had a setback professionally. Or reputationally. What I do is I rewind the clock 10 years and just think, wow, if me 10 years ago could have seen what I’m doing now, they would’ve been blown away. 

Jonathan Sposato: Jonathan Cool 

trick. 

Andrew Yang: Andrew Which is by the way, a hundred percent true because [00:11:00] I’ve had a career that younger me would never have dreamt of.

I mean, I’m the son of Taiwanese immigrants. Yeah. Talk about that. Who by the way, tried to discourage me from getting into politics. So a lot. So a lot of the things that I’ve done. It’s like, uh, there’s 

Jonathan Sposato: no money in politics. 

Andrew Yang: Yeah. They, they, they were worried about my family, my health, my safety, my financial health.

At one point my mom bought me a bulletproof vest that, by the way, was extraordinarily uncomfortable and bulky, and looked ridiculous. It looked like I was wearing a barrel, and I was like, I can’t, I can’t wear this thing 

Jonathan Sposato: uhhuh. 

Andrew Yang: Um, so that, that was the Yang family conversation. And the, the fact that I now have a bit of a platform and have written multiple books and I’m on TV regularly, all things that, again, five, six years ago, I, I never would’ve imagined.

So then you think, okay, I’m having a bad month. What, like, whatever, you know, in, in the scheme of things. Mm-hmm. I went and spoke at my alma mater Brown University mm-hmm. Last year and. [00:12:00] I thought if college me could see me now, like they, they would literally be stupefied. Mm-hmm. Plus. Mm-hmm. I’ve got a family, I’ve got a wife and two boys, uh, 13 and 10, and they like having me around.

Like, there are a lot of things that I can just point to and be like, okay. Mm-hmm. I’m, I’m, I’m all right. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: And for the most part, I’ve been rewarded for. Optimism or trying to do good things. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Uh, you know, my, my life is awesome, honestly. I mean, you know. Mm-hmm. It’s like, again, I’m right now though, like, I, I joke sometimes that like everything I’m doing is just beyond my expectations, but also gravy.

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, when I was younger, I was just like, I mean, I was like a normal person where it’s like, oh, I hope I have enough money to 

Jonathan Sposato: mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: You know, be able to. To go to the movies or whatever, or fix my car 

Jonathan Sposato: or, yeah, 

Andrew Yang: yeah. Yeah. And so, so a as I’ve progressed, my standards have risen in terms of impact.

Mm-hmm. Like that’s the measurement you have. And I, I know this about you too, John. I’m sure there are a lot of folks who can relate [00:13:00] to this, listening to it, where you reach a certain point. In your career or your trajectory where you’re, where you’re thinking, okay, what can I do that I’ll be proud of? Not to get morbid or anything, but I’d be proud of, you know, like lying in my deathbed.

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I think that’s a really good way to think about it. I love the way that you explicitly say, what would, 10 years ago me think about. Today. And that’s, that’s a very important perspective. Of course, as an Asian American, I can’t avoid these kinds of questions. Curious to know if during your presidential run if, and the world keeps changing and, and it doesn’t move in a straight line, there’s a lot of zigzagging and all of that stuff.

So maybe, you know, in the year 2026 is different from 2020, but were there moments when being Asian American you thought. Was either a political liability or perhaps a superpower. 

Andrew Yang: You use whatever you have when you are running. And so for [00:14:00] me it felt like a superpower. And as one example, when I came here to Seattle, there were a lot of Asian Americans here mm-hmm.

Who were very excited about supporting me. I was touched when one family brought their child to take a picture with me in New Hampshire. Uh, they were Chinese American. And they said, thank you. I didn’t know we were allowed to run for president. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Uh, and so there’s this wellspring of. Warmth and support from, particularly from, you know, from the Asian American community.

And I will say if you flash back to the 2020 field, there were 24 candidates of whom the vast majority were white. Dudes who were members of Congress or even senators or governors, I’m gonna, uh, you know, just if I were to say some names, people would be like, what? Like Seth Moulton ran. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Uh, right.

You know, Eric Swalwell ran. Mm-hmm. John Hickenlooper ran, like, there were all these people, oh wait, the, the governor of Washington at the time, Jay in Jay [00:15:00] Insley. Yeah. And I will say I got the. Sense that those candidates had a hard time sticking out because the average person looked at me like, oh, they’re, you know, as far as I can tell, they’re like 1250 something year old, uh, white male office holders.

And, uh, one of them, by the way, was named Joe Biden, so he was very conspicuous because he was the former vice president. And so it was tough for the Michael Bennett or the mm-hmm. Jay Insley or the John Hickenlooper of the world mm-hmm. To attract. Energy and a following. And so I actually think that helped on that level.

Mm-hmm. Because if you saw that stage of candidates, I used to joke, it’s like, who’s the Asian guy standing next to Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders and Right. You know, but visually, that probably did stick out. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and one of the things that I loved was both because of who you are as an Asian American, you stuck out, but also despite that, it was [00:16:00] clear that you had a different point of view.

I want to, of course, work my way to this really delightful, fun, informative, and I think at the end of the day, inspiring book that you just wrote. I’ve read it. My entire family’s read it. A lot of people in the community have read it and they’re just kind of blown away by. It’s candor, it’s winsomeness, it’s humor.

The way that it kind of underscores what a great polymath you are. I mean, you’re very funny. You’re, you’re obviously very intelligent and, and, and you have a very interesting perspective on fame and being visible, being highly visible, but also. Being around others who, so being sort of fame adjacent, I personally found it very soul enriching.

And so in the book, one of the places where you were very candid was you were reflecting on how you, amongst a lot of things that you predicted, whether it’s what was gonna happen with AI and which segment of the [00:17:00] workforce they might displace and things like that. How Trump was bad news from the start.

But one of the things that you were very. Oppression about was both how Biden was the wrong candidate and that Kamala Harris was not going to be the answer. Can you talk a little bit more about that? 

Andrew Yang: Yeah, so I ran in 2020 and my goal was to try and get Trump out of office because he was president at the time.

And so that cycle I endorsed Joe Biden and. Was a surrogate for him. Campaigned in Pennsylvania. And when you say he was the wrong candidate, I a thousand percent made the case. He was the wrong candidate. Four years later in 2024. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: In 2020, he said to all of us, I’m a bridge to the next generation.

Which did not suggest two term president at the age of, 

Jonathan Sposato: yeah. 

Andrew Yang: 80, 81 the second time. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And there was a third term member of Congress named Dean Phillips, who made that case said, look, we should have a primary running, an unpopular 81-year-old incumbent is going to bring Trump back. [00:18:00] And no one wanted to listen to Dean.

I went up to New Hampshire with Dean to help him. Dean did get 19% of the vote in that New Hampshire primary, which is not nothing. And it would’ve been much higher if the independents hadn’t all been voting for a Nikki Haley against Trump that night in the Republican primary. Mm-hmm. Because you know, the independents could choose one or the other.

And when Joe Biden had his disastrous debate, I then put on social media, the Democrats had swap Joe out, which. At the time I did not think was going to happen. I was just being a little bit snarky. ’cause I’d been campaigning with Dean five months earlier. It’s like, oh, this is a disaster. But then the Wall Street Journal, C-B-S-A-B-C, all blew up my phone.

Some of ’em had my number and said. Will you come on and talk about this? And I said, sure. At this point, I’m publicly, you know, on this side of the ledger saying I thought not having a primary was a catastrophic lapse on the part of the Dems. And so I spent the next number of weeks [00:19:00] going on TV being like, Joe is the wrong nominee.

They need to have a primary. And so then Joe drops out several weeks later and there’s this 24 hour period where. Obama and Pelosi and, uh, JB Pritzker and other figures are trying to figure out, okay. Are we gonna have a process? How are we gonna choose the next nominee? Is there gonna be an abbreviated mini primary where they might have five or six candidates, like JB Pritzker and Gavin Newsom and Josh Shapiro and Gretchen Whitmer and others?

Uh uh, Andy Beshear. Mm-hmm. They were meant to be a part of this clutch. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: But during that time, Kamala was just trying to lock up the nomination and then, um, she got it. Especially when Joe. Endorsed her. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And I had this sinking feeling at the time. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh no. Because to me, the best thing the Democrats could have done would’ve been to have had a primary in January, 2024.

Mm-hmm. Had a real introduction of the next generation show that, look, we a dynamic [00:20:00] political party. We’re not just the thrall of, uh, you know, one. Incumbent, which is really the way they behaved. And I had run alongside Kamala in 2020 and Joe and Bernie and the rest of it. And if you remember, the 2020 primary Kamala dropped out before the voting started.

Jonathan Sposato: That’s right. 

Andrew Yang: And so I had a front row seat to the fact that Kamala Harris, the candidate was a different. Thing than what you’d imagine it to be, I suppose. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where, where you think, oh, Kamala is sitting vice president, you know? Mm-hmm. Or Kamala senator from California, you think, oh, this is going to work.

Mm-hmm. Um, um, but I was very, very anxiously concerned. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: And so I thought, look. To have a primary, have a primary, and as soon as they essentially anointed Kamala, I got the sinking feeling. But then I endorsed Kamala a, a day like, uh, 24 hours later. ’cause I said, look, if you’re not gonna do it, then I’m just, I’m going to.

Say like, I’m an anyone but Trump guy, essentially. And so then [00:21:00] I endorsed Kamala, but I thought that they should have had a process, and if they had, there would’ve been potentially 

Jonathan Sposato: a, a better outcome. Right. Now, let me actually follow up on something real important here, because there is a way of looking at a national political candidate in two ways and using sort of Kamala as a proxy, or even Biden actually anybody.

If we look forward, you know, Gavin Newsom or something, which do you think is more impactful? The sort of, for lack of better term, the product that the candidate is selling. This is the avatar, this is the persona. These are the supposed attributes that I stand for. And you know, as it relates to the platform, but also just kind of some things that they want the brand of the candidate versus the actual functional.

Core competencies of someone. 

Andrew Yang: If you’re in a room with someone, and this is someone who’s, uh, now been a candidate, you kind of get a sense of how they’re going to perform in an interview, let’s [00:22:00] say. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: If you look at Joe Biden circa 2024, certainly, I mean, even in 2020, but 2024. His interviews were bad.

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And Kamala Harris 2020. Her interviews were bad. I would submit that her interviews were not that much better in 2024. And you could potentially, in some context, maybe in a business world, say like, I don’t care if they’re bad at interviewing, they’re good at running a, an operation, or they’re a great leader in other, other respects, being a candidate and being a.

President is largely a communications job. Mm-hmm. And you can say that’s unfair or whatnot. I mean, I’m gonna suggest like, look, that that’s pretty much what campaigning is. As a presidential candidate, I would show up and I would give the same stu speech, uh, with tiny variations just to keep myself from losing my mind.

But, you know, you’re, you are speaking a lot, uh, you’re doing interviews a lot and. It would be colossally delinquent [00:23:00] of a major party to nominate someone for the office of president if they weren’t great at communicator. You know what I mean? And so, by the way, and you mentioned Gavin Newsom, I think I might have too.

Gavin Newsom is a high level communicator and political athlete. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: He’s charismatic in room, he’s got high command. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: He’s gonna be formidable. Yeah. As someone who knows him socially, has been in a room with him multiple times. And by the way, this is something that human beings pick up on in various ways.

There’s this strange funhouse mirror effect where like you’ll never hear a reporter just be like, Hey, the person is a dud. Or the person’s bad at doing it, you know, those mm-hmm. Like, they’ll try and translate it into identity or demographics or, or, or something. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Um, and as a human being, you can look at it and be like, look like Gavin Newsom is objectively a very tall, handsome, charismatic human being.

Mm-hmm. Who can, who by the way, because of that, like, do I think that’s going to matter? In the primary [00:24:00] upcoming a hundred percent. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Like he’s going to go to South Carolina and Michigan and people are gonna get drawn. Yeah. They’re gonna like him. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Yeah. Oh, he looks like a star. Mm-hmm. I mean, he looks like central casting and that.

Mm-hmm. You know, might have some other issues. There’s like a threshold of communication ability for sure. By the way, another excellent communicating in the Democratic party. Pete Buttigieg. Mm-hmm. Just really, really strong. Yeah. Uh, 

Jonathan Sposato: a OC too, I think. 

Andrew Yang: A OC is excellent. Yeah. Yeah. In her way. Super smart diff Yeah.

Different lane, but 

Jonathan Sposato: yeah, different lane. Right. 

Andrew Yang: And, and for a OC too, she in my mind specializes in social media. Mm-hmm. 

Jonathan Sposato: Comms. Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: That, that’s not quite, uh, the same for. Pete, uh, or Gavin, but yeah, they’re all very, very talented. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Also Zoran Ani 

Jonathan Sposato: mayor. Excellent. 

Andrew Yang: Very, 

Jonathan Sposato: very talented. Yeah, that’s right.

I remember sometimes oftentimes being very frustrated about that communication aspect. I mean, I was one of these geeky kids who studied, who went back and looked at Kennedy’s press briefings and how he kind of just put the room at ease. And I would [00:25:00] try to try to understand how he did that. I think one of the best political speeches of all time was actually Ed Kennedy’s concession speech.

I’ve sort of plagiarized some of it when I’m supposed to give speeches that inspire people, like in a, in a nonprofit world. This was all in a, in an attempt to, to get better myself as a leader, as a CEO to, you know, how do I. Run all hands meetings and have people pay attention and not, you know, not get bored.

So I have to vehemently agree that a, just a non-negotiable is your ability to connect with people and, you know, may not. I think some of the things that come to the table that you’re born with, some of the, you know, whether you’re tall or. Attractive. That stuff does count, but I also think that so many other stuff in terms of how genuine you can come across, how authentic you can be, I think Trump is the worst thing to have happened in American politics.

And by the way, I don’t care if I lose listeners, um, if I say that, but one of the things that he does really well is that he just nets it out into like a simple, very, very relatable. [00:26:00] Bite 

Andrew Yang: if you rewind to 2016 and, and this was an industry for both Hillary and Kamala in my view. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. Right, that’s right.

Andrew Yang: Is is that when someone asks them a question? 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: They seem to be cycling through. Mm-hmm. And there’s this parallel process 

Jonathan Sposato: mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Mm-hmm. Of what should I say? 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: In response to this question. 

Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Uh, and it makes you seem calculating. It makes you seem hesitant. It makes you seem inauthentic and you know, I feel for people in these positions because they probably will.

Gotcha. Mm-hmm. You if you say something, uh, a little bit wrong, but you feel none of that from a Trump type figure. Yeah, 

Jonathan Sposato: right. 

Andrew Yang: He’s just like, oh yeah, we’re gonna do this. And Oh, that, you know, that’s a dumb question, like, you know, but he seems very. Authentically stream of consciousness. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, yeah. 

Andrew Yang: In a way that voters will accept.

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: More than if it seems like you’re a calculating politician. Right? 

Jonathan Sposato: Right. 

Andrew Yang: And so look, as someone who’s done 5 million interviews, is there always some level of calculation going on? And that’s the funny thing is like if, like, oh, I’m looking for someone [00:27:00] who’s authentic, but then if you. Misstep, we’re gonna grill you for a clean 48 hours.

Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. And you’re surrounded by staffers who will be prodding you at every moment. Like, do not screw up. Do not screw up. So mm-hmm. You know that there’s a, a needle to thread. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. No. And, and, and that does add, um, those staffers or just like a PR team that’s, that’s watching and taking notes, you know, on the side as you’re speaking.

It can be very, and 

Andrew Yang: they, they tend to be very risk averse. Yeah. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: Uh, you know, they’ll, they’ll try to shield 

Jonathan Sposato: you from Right. Certain topics. Yeah. Questions interviewers. That’s right. I think them being in a room, there’s like a Heisenberg principle thing where they’re, they sort of affect Yeah, the outcome totally.

Just by showing up and sort of another axes that you can use to talk about. And I re, I remember in the early days of Microsoft Bill Gates, we called ’em, bill G was very hands-on and you know, you’d meet with him on a regular basis, you know, product reviews, things like that. And he was tough. I mean, he just.

Let [00:28:00] fly expletives and routinely say things, you know, this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Or, uh, the worst thing that I ever heard in a meeting not directed at me, but at somebody else was, do we have to pay you on the days that you’re stupid or only on the days that you’re smart? And I remember that person turning to me and.

Saying, I, I guess I’m done here. And, uh, so, and what he respected, which I learned, and, and over time I, I think some of my old colleagues at Microsoft would vouch for me here, that I, I sort of became a bill whisperer. Like if there was ever like a tough conversation to have with Bill, or our product timeline was, you know, we weren’t meeting our deadlines or, or we weren’t making as much money as our prior plan, they would send, you know, innocent.

Nice Jonathan in the room to kind of, uh, delivered a message. And one of the things I learned really early on is when you’re asked a question, when you’re asked a direct question, especially if it’s a question at where you expect the answer to have a number, you can’t talk for five minutes. And then you can’t 

Andrew Yang: hand wave, you can’t obfuscate, 

Jonathan Sposato: you cannot, 

Andrew Yang: you know, people sense when you’re withholding.

Jonathan Sposato: [00:29:00] Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: And that’s right. It makes them mistrust 

Jonathan Sposato: or manipulating. And so I started coaching the younger guys to top load your answer. Just give the yes or a no, or I don’t know, right up front. Just net it out right up front immediately. And then if you choose to explain it, then do that. Another thing that I learned and, and I hate to s.

Because it sounds more manipulative or superficial is transferring confidence that there are just ways that, you know, whether it’s body language or tone or level of conviction and emotion, just that that counts even with someone as super smart and data-driven as Bill. Even he would respond to those kinds of more optical things.

So 

Andrew Yang: that’s a Trumpian gift, man. I can say total nonsense with confidence and authority. And then people are like, oh, you know, I mean there, there’s a story about how Trump, when he’s evaluating people 

Jonathan Sposato: mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: He. Watches them on TV with the sound off because all he cares about is the visual. 

Jonathan Sposato: Wow. 

Andrew Yang: And so 

Jonathan Sposato: interesting.

Andrew Yang: And so when you watch him too, that’s his entire jam is like, [00:30:00] eh, what I’m saying doesn’t matter. Mm-hmm. You’re not gonna remember these words. Right? That’s right. Figure I can make anything up, but as long as I do it with command. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And confidence people be like, oh, that guy’s in charge. Yeah, that guy’s fine.

Jonathan Sposato: Right, right. Well, all of this is really my complicated way of directing. This back to you, which is that it was really, really refreshing to watch you in action, both when you were running for office, but also just kind of hanging out with you here in Seattle, that you strike that beautiful balance of being able to transfer confidence, but not in a fake way.

It’s there’s, there’s substance there. There’s stuff behind the words. There’s a lot going on in your head there. And you have a way of phrasing things that people will remember. You don’t say things in cliche ways. You say things in smart, sort of sometimes funny, clever ways and, and you really stood out, which made my frustration during the 2020 primary, all the more frustrating.

Andrew Yang: Well, if, if you remember the center of that campaign, it was, Hey, AI is gonna come [00:31:00] take the jobs. Mm-hmm. And we need to start, I was the magical Asian man from the future who wanted to give everyone money. Right. At the time it seemed a little far out. Mm-hmm. Um, though now six years later, it seems pretty easy.

We’re living through it. Spot on. We’re right, right there. I mean, you, you see block just laid off 40% of their staff, the highest percentage layoff in s and p 500 history, and they said, look, it’s just gonna be ai. I talked to executives who say that’s happening in their companies, and so now the argument looks pretty good.

And to your point about how it was like a different process. No one came to me and told me to get passionate about AI and automation. I just was passionate because I knew this was a train coming down the tracks that was going to affect millions of people. And in my view, it had already gotten Trump elected once because we hadn’t taken it seriously when it came to the manufacturing employees of the Midwest.

Jonathan Sposato: So [00:32:00] after your presidential run, one of the things that you did, which was really unexpected, you launched the forward party and it seems like starting a new political party in the United States, it’s like this impossible thing. What made you believe that this was number one necessary and number two possible?

Andrew Yang: You know, I think I might have related this backstory, so. 2020, I get a contract for a book about what’s going on with American democracy and how to fix it. And so I’m open-minded. I’m doing research, and I find out some things that even though I considered myself educated and informed and the rest, I was like, wait a minute, where.

The approval rating of Congress right now as we’re having this convo, it’s around 15%, one five, like extraordinarily low. And the reelection rate for incumbent members of Congress is 94%, which is extraordinarily high. And so you look at those two numbers and you’re like, wait, what? Um, turns out that 90% of the congressional districts in the United States are [00:33:00] non-competitive.

They’ve been gerrymandered to be quite. Blue are quite red. Hmm. I mean, if you are in Seattle, you know, not many Republicans running successfully. Mm-hmm. In, in the local precincts, um, that sort of thing. And the polarization is getting worse in part because only 11% of people vote in the primaries. And so you have the wings of the party that now control the discourse.

The conversation, by the way, now, and a senator said this to me, I, I’ve heard a lot of stuff from senators now, but the senator said it used to be guilt by association. Now it’s guilt by conversation where you’re not even allowed to talk to the other person. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: So I’m digging into all these facts and figures in 2020, and by the way, a synthesis of them can be seen in my TED Talk of 2024, which was the number seven TED talk of of that year.

But my process to get there was the same way I sat down and figured out, okay. In my view, automation is going to shred millions of jobs and we’re gonna [00:34:00] wind up in a very bad spot. Also, our political system is not designed to solve problems or bring people together. It’s designed now to inflame, mistrust, uh, and fear and hostility, and it’s gonna get worse, not better.

And so at the end of that book that I’d then researched and written, it’s called Forward Notes on the Future of Our Democracy. Then I had to say, okay, what are we gonna do about it? And what I concluded was that you needed to shift the primary system from closed party primaries to non-partisan open primaries.

Mm-hmm. Ideally combined with something called rank choice voting. Mm-hmm. Or instead runoff voting. Yeah. Let’s 

Jonathan Sposato: about that. 

Andrew Yang: What happens now is that the most extreme, 11% nominate the party’s candidate and then that candidate wins in a cakewalk. Mm-hmm. And so all I need to worry about is keeping the base happy, and if I make the base or the party boss is mad, then my job security drops from 94% to, you know, like 10%, uh, for exhibit A.[00:35:00] 

The. Members of Congress who voted to impeach Donald Trump, there were maybe 10 of them and only two of them made it back through after taking that vote because the base turned on them. So what you need to do is empower the 51% or the broad 80%, or even the a hundred percent instead of the. Extreme primary voters, and the most straightforward way to do that is just change the primaries.

Make it so anyone can vote. And one state did that. That’s the state of Alaska because Alaska made that change. Lisa Murkowski was able to come back to the Senate, even though she voted to impeach Trump. And I want everyone to think about that. It’s like, wait, how does the that even work? They don’t have Republican party primaries anymore in Alaska.

So she essentially went to like an all voter. Process and then she beat a Trumper in the general, essentially 52 48. But if that had only been held among Republicans, she loses. 

Jonathan Sposato: Hmm. 

Andrew Yang: That change was made to Alaska’s voting system at a cost [00:36:00] of $5 million in 2020. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: So the case I was making is, look, let’s just do the same thing in as many states as possible.

Mm-hmm. And if you could liberate 6, 8, 10 US Senators mm-hmm. From primaries, then you don’t get Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth. Yeah. You don’t get director of the FBI Cash Patel. 

Jonathan Sposato: Right. 

Andrew Yang: You know, you’d have some saying. Senators in the center saying, you know what, I’m just not a fan. Like, and, and then, and they can’t get drummed outta the party because maybe they don’t have a, a party primary they need to worry about.

Jonathan Sposato: Right. 

Andrew Yang: So that was the vision that I came to in 2020 while I was writing this book and I realized that you cannot. Do that from within the two party system because each party will say, well, can’t do it on our side. You know, like, I got into office this way, so you’re somehow gonna weaken our party’s control.

It is just impossible to get either party to disarm itself. And uh, you’d also get immediately characterized as either a blue plot or a red plot. And so what I [00:37:00] said, you know what, you have to get the 50% of Americans who are independents to organize. Into this new movement that I called, not left or right, but forward.

And my joke is called it forward party because backward party was taken. And so that’s the way the bookends in 2020 is, Hey, we need an independent movement to fix the incentives. And I will now start that movement. And it’s called a forward party. So, so it, it was a culmination of my arriving at what I thought the solution was.

Mm-hmm. And I thought my job was to try and build the solution. Mm-hmm. Now, of course, no one actually hired me for that job, but that, that’s my, that’s what I, I I’m trying to do. Mm-hmm. I’ve sort of given myself that job. Yeah. So then, uh, in 2021, the book comes out. And I raise my hand and say, Hey, I’m no longer a Democrat, I’m an independent, and I’m gonna be trying to move, uh, our primaries mm-hmm.

To this more effective moderating system that ends up getting more moderate candidates elected, and [00:38:00] that co completely gets lost in the tribalism shuffle. Mm-hmm. Like, instead it’s like, oh, we’ll left the Democratic party, why blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. Must be mm-hmm. Running for president must want a Fox News contract.

Like all this weird stuff where I was like, wait a minute, what? I’m just trying to reform the primaries so that they make sense. Mm-hmm. And that we don’t ha all end up subject to in, in my view, like MAGA extremism. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so that’s how the forward party. Originated. And now I’m happy to say my co-chair is former New Jersey Governor Christie Todd Whitman.

Uh, we have 79 elected officials around the country, very active here in Washington State. If you wanna go to forward party.com and click on Washington. Mm-hmm. Growing all the time, gubernatorial candidates, Senate candidates. It’s an awesome patriotic movement. I mean, even the word patriotism now is freighted.

Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s, but I think 

Jonathan Sposato: we 

Andrew Yang: can reclaim 

Jonathan Sposato: it. 

Andrew Yang: I would, I would like that. I mean, it, it’s a wholesome, solutions oriented movement of people that want the 50% in the middle to [00:39:00] actually feel like they have a voice in American politics. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. How might you advise. Say Democrats or Republicans, for that matter, to get over to tribalism, to get over the brand label, to kind of make that mental shift, to think differently and embrace something like a forward party.

Andrew Yang: I’ve got a really simple litmus test on this, John. So if you want nonpartisan open primaries combined with rank choice, voting and money outta politics, then we’d love to have you. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Um, but the, the fascinating thing is that it’s very, very hard to find an office holding Democrat or Republican who will come out for nonpartisan primaries.

Mm-hmm. Because right now they’ve got control of the system. Mm-hmm. And if you open it up to the general elector, it’s like, oh, I don’t know how they’re gonna vote. I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to win. Mm-hmm. Like I’m, I’ve, I’ve got 90% job security in the current system. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: So that, that to me is my challenge to party office holders is if [00:40:00] you want to improve the system, we wanna work with you.

Mm-hmm. Like we endorse Democrats mm-hmm. All the time. Mm-hmm. We endorse Republicans all the time. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: But one of the things that has driven me this last number of years is a Zoom I was on in 2020. I concluded while researching this book that rank choice voting was a moderating influence. By the way, it’s good for women candidates.

Mm-hmm. Uh, women are more collegial. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And consensus oriented, less flamethrower. Mm-hmm. In general. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And so I had the Zoom and I asked the, the leaders of this organization, who’s the most prominent person for ranked choice voting? And they said two words that haunt me to this day. They said, probably you.

And then I said, how the heck can it be me? Like, who the heck am I? But then I realized, if you’re an existing. Governor, senator office holder, your being for this reform weakens party control, and the consultants in your circle yell at you, other office holders yell at you. That to me, really is the [00:41:00] challenge for folks who, who say like, look, let’s try and reform the two party system.

It’s like if you don’t make those two changes to the primary system and getting money outta politics, like the, it’s not actually going to work. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. What about at the top of the funnel with just everyday people who have, uh, strongly identified themselves with, uh, one label or the other? How do you surmount that challenge of getting people to drop those labels?

Andrew Yang: Yeah. What’s interesting, John, is that right now, by the way, I was a Democrat. I went to Brown University. Yeah. I was a Democrat for decades. Mm-hmm. So if someone’s like, I’m a Democrat through too, it’s like, look, I’m fine with that until they start. Attacking, uh, people for being something else. Mm-hmm. And then it’s like, wait, what happened?

I mean, you know, as long it’s like, I’m not, like, I’m cool with whatever you choose to be. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: And so the, the approval rating for the Democratic Party right now is at 29%, which is a generational low. 

Jonathan Sposato: Wow. That is so low. 

Andrew Yang: And I’m going to suggest that, uh, their failure to have a primary in [00:42:00] 2024 has a lot to do with that and you know their 

Jonathan Sposato: mm-hmm.

Andrew Yang: Failure to have a postmortem afterwards where they come clean has a lot to do with that. By the way, those of you, this will make you feel better. The approval rating for the Republican party’s not that much better. It’s like 33% or something along those lines. So both parties are deep underwater, 

Jonathan Sposato: right? 

Andrew Yang: 50% of us, including most of the people listening to this right now, either identify as independents or they say they lean towards a particular party.

In this context, probably Democrats, but they’re dubious about what the heck is going on in the party. You know, and maybe you have an excess here in Seattle where you’re like, look, always consider myself a Democrat, but I do not know what’s going on with our approach to homelessness. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, 

Andrew Yang: crime education, like, you know, like whatever issue where you’re like, I’m not. Really keen on what’s going on there. Mm-hmm. So the, the goal with the forward party in many ways to say, look, you can support a good candidate or person of any party. 

Andrew Yang: Democrat, Republican, independent. Um, as long as you wanna reform the system and uh, you want to come together, and that’s an [00:43:00] appeal that will work at this point on the majority of Americans, are there gonna be some Americans that are like, f you, I’m a Democrat and I hate you for even suggesting that we’re not the answer to all of the ills.

And I’ll be like, all right, you know, you, you’re all set. But, but, but, but that describes in real life, a smaller and smaller proportion of people. The way to think about forward is that we’re political infrastructure for independence. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: And we wanna reform the system. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: And uh, you know, I know statistically that actually describes most of us.

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. So I do have to ask, um, in your book, which again, I encourage people to go and read it, it’s so incredibly insightful and it’s just a fun read. Um, you have this idea that at any one given time, you’re. As, as short as 60 seconds away from deciding that you might run again or 60 seconds away from doing something kind of self-destructive.

Uh, uh, and I’ll let you go. 

Andrew Yang: Ending my, my time in public life. Yeah, 

Jonathan Sposato: yeah, right. I just wanna know as, as your friend, as someone who was impressed [00:44:00] by you during your last, uh, presidential campaign. I don’t live in New York, sadly, so I wasn’t able to help you with the mayoral race. But, um, what would cause you to tip over in 60 seconds to, uh, wanting to run again?

Andrew Yang: You know, it it, it’s funny because when I ran in 2020, it was a result of a bit of a process. I can feel myself kicking the tires on what it would take to post that social media message saying, yang gang, we’re back. AI is here. We’re here to, it’s time to. Save us all from, from the, uh, automation whirlwind, um, and implement universal based income, which by the way would be excellent for everyone.

Um, men, women, I mean women do the majority of the unrecognized work in households, uh, and in the economy. Uh, my wife is at home with her autistic child for years, and, uh, the market recognized her value as zero. And we all know that’s completely wrong. Um, so. [00:45:00] There, there are steps and it it, like someone asked me last night, it’s like, what does it take to run for president?

I said, all you have to do is file a piece of paper and, uh, and then you, you two will be a presidential candidate. It turns out that most of it is a social construction, and so in my case people regard me as a genuine. Presidential candidate because I made seven debates. I raised $40 million. I did all this stuff.

But factually, you know, there were thousands of presidential candidates last cycle at every cycle. Um, what, what it would take to, to get me to throw my hat in the ring again, is feeling like I can make a contribution I’m proud of, regardless of whether I win or lose. And that’s something that I felt in 2020.

I mean, I, I didn’t actually have a mission. It’s like, oh, if I don’t become president, then you know, mission not accomplished. By the way, that was one of the funny things about being a candidate is people would say, do you think you can win journalists? And it’s a trick question because if you say yes, then you’re crazy.

But if you say no, then you’re unserious in a joke and we should never talk you again. So then you come up with this third answer, which is there are multiple ways to win. [00:46:00] And, uh, this is a campaign of ideas and like you can say, you know, things that are kind of a deflection, but I knew at that time that I was on a mission and we were going to do some good, uh, whether or not I wound up in, in the White House.

So if I felt the same way, um, that would be one of the main reasons I’d run again. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah, well it was certainly very, very heartening, uh, to see. At the town hall where people demonstrated a high level of emotion and passion for you, and certainly for the possibility that you might run again. I thought that that was really something.

I, I don’t know that, you know, again, I’m not, I’m not a someone who goes to a lot of rallies or, or, you know, I didn’t. Like our other friends, you know, show up in Iowa in 2020. But for me, that was, that was really, um, that stuck out to me, the kind of emotion and the kind of passion that I saw. Um, so that’s very unique.[00:47:00] 

Andrew Yang: Thanks. And, and that is the humanity of it all. John. I mean, at the end of the day, if someone like me decides to run for president, what that means in real life is, okay. I go on the trail, I leave my wife and kids for days or weeks at a time. I make a case to people often, by the way, hoping for the best.

But then, you know, like things take on a, a shape of their own and just trusting that you’re doing. The right thing and that some people will connect with it, like some of the, um, the folks last night. And in many ways, that is the antidote to this current era because we’re in this era of the algorithm and AI and numbers and.

Billion or trillion dollar enterprises with, with their own agendas. The real question is, can enough people share in our human aspirations and dreams together and get together and, and do something that actually turns the tides of history? And so I, I was touched by it too, and [00:48:00] it’s funny having been in the public eye essentially for, you know, seven or eight years now.

Um. When I see that impact that I’ve had, it makes me wanna do more. Mm-hmm. It, it makes you feel like you have a sacred obligation. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Totally. Last question. What would you say to a young American kid in Seattle or anywhere and maybe an immigrant kid who is ambitious but unsure about whether politics is a space where they belong?

No. Uh, when I was dating 

Andrew Yang: Evelyn, she saw a list of my life’s goals, and it was things around, uh, be a good son, um, own a dog. And then, uh, and then one of them was elevate one national political figure. It was not be mm-hmm. A political figure was, find some other chump

and then speed them on their way, and [00:49:00] then you could be like, okay, I, I did something. I’m proud of. Um, that was my original goal and I think that’s a healthy one. So I joke sometimes like, oh, you should run for president, like everyone should. Why not? Like, what’s stopping you? I don’t think that being a candidate is for everyone.

I don’t think it’s for everyone to be so public. I mean, I’m an introvert at heart. I was like a very bookworm. Shy kid myself, but we all have it in us to support someone who’s good. We all have it in us to do a little research. So as someone who’s been in this process, if someone energetic shows up and wants to help, it means the world and they actually can help.

And so that’s what I’d say to that kid. And this is also if you’re a parent and you have a child of a certain age who’s expressed interest in this. Say, Hey, go volunteer on a campaign. Go work in a campaign, because it’s one of those environments where you can get outsized responsibility very, very quickly.

For my presidential, [00:50:00] as an example, we had maybe 300 paid staff at various points, and a lot of them were pulled from Star volunteers because we started out with paid staff of five or whatnot. And so you go from five to 300, who are you going to hire? Mm-hmm. For advance or. Comms or whatever roles, it’s like the person who’s been there volunteering and demonstrating mm-hmm.

That they’re good. 

Jonathan Sposato: Yeah. 

Andrew Yang: I mean, that actually sounds like a 

Jonathan Sposato: startup. 

Andrew Yang: It is a lot like that. So like you build up that trust and that human connection that we’re talking about mm-hmm. Where a person’s showing up in the winter in Iowa 

Jonathan Sposato: mm-hmm. 

Andrew Yang: Kicking ass for you, and then you need to hire someone, you’re like, I should just freaking hire Conrad.

Like, he’s right there. And we were fortunate where the money all of a sudden was coming in. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, I. Obviously so, so profound. So like, so, but we’d, we were doing things, the campaign was growing and so then we were hiring. So that could be your son or daughter. That could be you. Like if, if you volunteer, awesome things can happen.

And you don’t necessarily [00:51:00] need to have your name on the poster though. If you do wanna have your name on the poster, freaking do that too. 

Jonathan Sposato: Mm-hmm. Andrew, I so appreciate you. Not just for the ideas, but for the spirit in which you offer them. I think in a political era that often rewards outrage over imagination, you’ve consistently chosen curiosity.

Data and an optimism about what this country can become, what we can all become. So I wanna thank you for joining us, for challenging us, for making us think differently and better, and for reminding us that the future isn’t, you know, nothing’s really a fa of accompli and that it’s something that we get to design and change.

Andrew Yang: and, and who would know that better than Seattle? Really, John? I mean, yeah. You know That’s right. You’re at the cutting edge. Uh, you have been for, for years and years. Who better to build the future? 

Jonathan Sposato: That’s right. That’s right. And to our listeners, thanks for spending this [00:52:00] time with us.